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Re: (meteorobs) We are having fun now...

In a message dated 97-02-21 13:50:16 EST, you write:

<< Evoking JFK's well-worn phrase, one of the primary reasons you were turned
 down is because that rather than asking what you could do for the AMS, you
 focused simply on what the AMS could do for you, in your typical abrasive
style.<<

Well Jim, I don't deny that I have an abrasive style...but the typicalness is
usually triggered by something first. I don't just start off abrasive...I
evolve to that point....in this case, I'm not bashful to be abrasive with AMS
whenever the opportunity arises based upon how I was initially treated by Dr.
Meisel...which I equate as being AMS.  When I approached Meisel, I went with
the attitude that I had a lot to offer him and AMS. I introduced myself as a
very serious visual observer for IMO with lots of hours and good data and
that I do radio meteor monitoring simultaneously while observing.  I first
offered to send him my data, but he flatly didn't want it because I was
sending it to IMO as well. His wording gave me the impression that it was an
ultimatum...IMO or AMS.  Apparently this is something that is happening now
by some members on the list today...a change? He announced that he had grant
money to be spent towards meteor work. I inquired about the possibility of
using some of this money towards photographic work. He tells me that "AMS is
more interested in establishing an automated radiometeor network than visual
work".  In one of his letters he mentioned that AMS still has some camera
equipment and rotating shutters stored away. I asked for the possibility of a
loan of some of the equipment...this was denied. He kept coming back with
indications that AMS is only interested in Radio work at the present.  I
mentioned something to the effect that I only do radio work while visually
observing and was trying to start a photographic effort.  He tells me
something to the effect that he thinks I was wasting my time and that radio
work was more efficient since you didn't have to be up late observing.  To
say the least, I was quite surprised to find out that AMS was no longer
interested in visual work...especially after all the dialogues I've been
hearing from some of the AMS people on this list. I guess I was falsely under
the impression that if I made an effort to do all the work, that I was doing
something for AMS?  Based upon what I've been hearing from a few of the AMS
members on this list, I was curious if this was an example of AMS's great
teaching and assistance efforts? It seems that the only thing I could have
said to him that would have gotten me any assitance was my willingness to set
up an automated radio meteor site. 
 
>> Did it occur to you to ASK what you might do to help the visual program or
 to improve Dr. Meisel's professional interest?  Or did you just assume that
 what you wanted to do for yourself ought to be good enough for him.<<

I was spilling my guts to him what I was doing and willing to do...why should
I ASK what I might do to help the visual program when all I'm hearing is "No"
and that AMS is not interested in visual work at this time and that AMS is
primarily interested in automated radio meteor sites?  It doesn't take too
much from those words to figure out that if I get into a serious visual
program that I would be only there as a token...and not considered seriously.
I thought AMS stood for American Meteor Society...not American Meisel
Society...but now I see I was initially wrong. I got it right now. 
 
>> If a professional gets turned down by the NSF, they don't generally go on
a
 tirade against the NSF, they look for something else to propose, or they
 wait until the NSF regains an interest in that project.<<

I did something essentially like that... I concentrated my efforts with IMO
where I was getting positive feedback. I learned thru them how to set up my
photographic efforts...construct rotating shutters and received serious
guidance with my visual efforts. I observe and mostly plot meteors on any
night of the year when able (something that you would think AMS would be
interested in for their sporadic endeavors). I have no desire to wait several
years for AMS to make up it's mind if they are intersested in visual work or
not. I found a place where the efforts are appreciated and not discouraged.
 What would you do if Meisel suddenly tells you outright that AMS no longer
is interested in  Radio Meteors and doesn't want to talk to you unless you
discuss something he wants to talk about? You going to sit idle for several
years or more?
 
 >>I will admit that the recent interest of the AMS Board, not just Dr.
Meisel,
 has been in starting up the Radiometeor Project, but this will not always be
 the case.  Dr. Meisel DOES have an interest in the Visual Program, but it
 will take a concerted effort by more folks than just himself to bring such
 interests into fruition.<<

If Meisel has an interest in the Visual Program...you can't prove it to me.
Are you on this board? How many board members are directly involved with this
radio meteor project? Who is on this board that isn't knee deep in benefiting
from the radio meteor project? How many board members are there? Are the
people that aren't involved in the radio meteor project just tokens? Who
dictates the board?
 
 >>If our visual program has stagnated, it is primarily because everyone has
 been standing around, waiting for the professor to do all the work.  Mail
 off your forms, and the magic is supposed to occur at the university.  To do
 anything beyond archive, however, you need to hire a clerical staff (which
 we cannot afford), or you need a volunteer staff who is willing to do some
 "grunge work."  Most AMS members have been content to simply make their
 observations and collect their Meteor News, nothing more.<<

From the sounds of it...the professor hasn't done any of the work...Re: the
piles of observations that needs to go thru that everyone keeps referring to.
From the 1993 AMS report that I read (the only one I have available), it
looks like the professor wasn't swamped with forms at all. As a matter of
fact, it looks like the professor (AMS) is getting what he asked for...more
radio effort than visual observations. 
 
>>A couple of other folks have come forward, proposing to take over the
Visual
 Program, and reform it in the image of the IMO.  This idea didn't wash with
 the board either, for the reasons i explained, at length, last summer.  Many
 people seem ready to tell us what we ought to be doing, but few seem willing
 to simply ask what we would like to do, and if they can help bring it
about.<<

And now AMS is running like a smooth engine? Take a hint or AMS will always
remain nothing more than a public U.S. Master of Ceremonies for major
showers.  Without this international change and the AMS could care less
attitude towards the serious visual observer,  stagnation will be always
present. 
 
 >>In the 1994 AMS Annual Report, Dr. Meisel mentioned the fact that
conducting
 an update to Dr. Olivier's Sporadic Rate studies is on our mind, utilizing
 modern statistical techniques.  It will take more than just Dr. Meisel,
 however, working on the idea to bring this about.<<

Is this part of the automated radio meteor project?...Is visual observers
involved in this? ...or is this just talk?
 
 >>If the meteor community in this country wants to have an active, thriving
 meteor society, then folks are going to have to do more than just sling
 barbs, but genuinely offer to help.  If you are truly interested in
 cooperation between organizations, then the first step is mutual respect and
 recognition, not criticism and contempt.<<

And on the other hand, if a meteor community in this country wants to be a
thriving society and taken seriously, the society better do more than just
discourage the visual observer and turn their backs on someone who offers to
do a lot of the leg work in gathering data. From the looks of it, gathering
data is a big amount  of leg work. It should also refrain from making itself
look like a second rate organization by thinking in terms of Isolationism.
AMS has lost me forever as long as the current people that are running the
show are still pulling the strings for their own personal projects...and not
that of all aspects of meteor science. 
 Sincerely,
  >>