Of the 85 Orionid meteors that I saw in six hours, from 4:40 to 6:40 UT on October 23/24, and 4:40 to 8:40 UT the next night, with a average LM=6.4, the average Orionid was 2.8 magnitude. Also, one in four Orionids left a visible train. As mentioned before, these observations were made at Davis, West Virginia, USA. GWG