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RE: (meteorobs) FIREBALLS people !!

Jim,
	I really don't want to overly prolong this discussion, especially with the 
Quadrantids peaking tonight, but I feel I have to respond to some of your 
comments. Remember, it was you who came on the list rather strong, chiding 
everyone for not discussing these "major" events. My tone was perhaps a bit 
too casual, but the fact that there was no discussion going on could have 
clued you in that the majority of the list did not consider these unusual 
occurrences.This is the first place that fireball reports show up, and if 
they were observed by several people, with good data, then we investigate 
based on this information. In fact, now that there is a second report of 
the northeast fireball of 12/26, I will begin doing just that! The fact is, 
most fireball reports lack sufficient information to be scientifically 
useful, and it takes considerable effort to extract useful information from 
unskilled observers. Somehow, bright fireballs are rare for skilled meteor 
 observers....Murphy's law I suspect :-> Still, based on the posts to the 
meteorobs list, I contend that there are not an unusual number of fireballs 
right now. In fact, I would kind of describe this as a lull!

	However, I resent having my passion for meteor observing called apathetic. 
How many hours have you logged in the past year, looking for meteors in the 
sky?

	Regarding the Big Bend "event" a quick glance at the image convinced me 
that this was non-meteoric, so there was no cause for excitement. Yes, a 
daytime fireball (or certainly a -14, day or night, such as you witnessed) 
IS a big event, from which useful scientific data may be obtained. Believe 
me, if I saw one, I'd be fired up, and I regularly investigate ANY fireball 
reports in the northeast, when sufficient observations exist. But a -7? In 
the large scheme, it's not that big a deal. You misinterpreted my comment 
about the -7 Leonid I saw, with a 5 minute train as "touting"; rather, my 
point was that I'd seen it, and while it was the brightest Leonid I saw, by 
itself it was of little scientific value. The value was in the entire night 
of observations of all 300 Leonids I saw, with magnitudes, and the 
non-Leonids. The fireball was not the story that night.

	Finally, your sarcastic comment at the end, ("But some people are more 
serious about this than just standing out in the backyard counting shooting 
stars"), despite your claim of no disrespect intended, was rather insulting 
to the dozens of people on this list who make the sacrifice of time 
required to make regular meteor observations. That happens to be my 
passion, as yours is fireballs. To each his own. I strive to make high 
quality scientific observations of meteor activity throughout the year. To 
that end, I spend scores of hours fighting cold, mosquitos, haze, and light 
pollution to collect data on meteor showers. This includes plotting every 
meteor I see, except for shower peak nights. Most of the serious meteor 
observers in the world are on this list, and to denigrate their efforts as 
"standing out in the backyard counting shooting stars" is uncalled for. 
Some people are turned on by fireballs (Stand up Jure :->) but still 
realize that most of the science in meteorics comes from regular observing. 
Yes, fireballs are exciting! Certainly any   -10 or brighter fireball, 
which has the potential to drop meteorites to the earth's surface is a 
valuable event. I do not argue that point. These are rare and priceless, 
such as the Alaskan Fireball of last year that created a new class of 
carbonaceous chondrites. And I certainly commend you for operating an all 
sky fireball camera; that is very useful.

	However, the recent modeling that has allowed us a more thorough 
understanding of the Leonid dust trails is based on the efforts of 
dedicated observers who spend countless hours lying down (standing would 
ruin your neck :->) somewhere recording data.

	In fact, since the skies are expected to be clear tonight for the peak of 
the Quadrantids, I will be lying in the backyard of the NJAA in 10 degree 
weather counting meteors. Will you be out there too? Quadrantid fireballs 
are rare, so we need data on all the meteors, not just the bright ones. And 
I'm sure if there are lots of reports, there will be lots of discussion, 
just as I'm sure if there's a -12 fireball there will be plenty of talk 
about that as well. So lets just accept that some things inspire 
discussion, and others don't..dot it's not necessary to yell at everyone 
because they are not talking enough! :-). We can all have our niches, and 
still work and play well together! And I do sincerely hope you manage to 
catch a Quadrantid fireball tonight, although we're too far apart to see 
the same one (unless it's REAAALLLLLYYYYY big!!)

	Good luck and clear skies to all tonight!

Wayne

----------
From: 	Jim and Jan Gamble[SMTP:gamble@peoplepc.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:58 AM
To: 	meteorobs@jovian.com
Subject: 	Re: (meteorobs) FIREBALLS people !!

Wayne,
  I respectfully disagree with, especially your first sentence..."What's to 
discuss, Jim", your apathetic approach to
potential major events. How can you possibly mean "what's to discuss". 
Isn't that why the meteorobs mailing list was
implemented... to discuss meteor observations. I don't believe such casual 
comments describe the passion most list
members have for DISCUSSION and investigation of especially major meteor 
events. Although the apparent Big Bend event was
aptly uncovered by Dr. Tony Phillips as being an optical abberation, 
readily admitted to by Park officials, at least HE
investigated and passed along information. You on the other hand simply 
relegated a possible major event to happen
chance...no big deal.......then touted your observation of a -7 as a big 
deal. If you wanna compare sizes, I live in El
Paso Tx where in Oct. of 1997, a fireball brighter than the sun detonated 
in daylight directly overhead. I observed the
blinding flash then heard the thunder of the blast which rattled homes for 
70 miles around. I was part of the subsequent
investigation of that event which was conducted over a period of several 
weeks by Peter Brown and Alan Hildebrand. Then,
on Aug. 28 of 2000, I observed a night time fireball, the burn time of 
which lasted 10 seconds, with a mag of -14. Sandia
Labs thought that was a big deal too. So much so that I am now operating an 
all sky camera system as part of the Lab's
fireball detection network.
  So you see, Wayne, these things are big deals...not only to me but to 
everyone else on the list.
  Are there an unusually high number of fireballs raining down upon us ? 
Well, are there ? Check it out.
  Oh, and by the by, Jim B's report turned out to be quite something.
  No disrespect meant, Wayne. But some people are more serious about this 
than just standing out in the backyard counting
shooting stars.
Respectfully,
Jim Gamble
gamble@peoplepc.com

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'-/TW``#_<'3 
`
end

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