Actually Epsilon Lyrae is easier for me when the sky is pitch black. I think this is highly individual - even at age 44 I still see a lot of black between the stars. -- Clear skies, Mel Bartels // Programmer/Analyst, amateur astronomer Springfield, Oregon, // USA homepage: http://www.efn.org/~mbartels mailto:mbartels@efn.org // atm, atm-digest list-owner Motorize A Dob: http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~mbartels/altaz/altaz.html